All good points, save one. In your equivalence argument on the genocide point, you don't present an alternative, and the "your family" analogy is really not up to your standards. If Hamas acts as Hams is acting, then what is Israel to do? As you pointed out, negotiation with them is futile. But if you don't act, then endless repeats of O…
All good points, save one. In your equivalence argument on the genocide point, you don't present an alternative, and the "your family" analogy is really not up to your standards. If Hamas acts as Hams is acting, then what is Israel to do? As you pointed out, negotiation with them is futile. But if you don't act, then endless repeats of October 7th is inevitable. And it's hard to come up with a strategy that doesn't end up with about 50% Israeli casualties if they don't go the total war route. It's incumbent on a civilized army to respect civilians, but to sacrifice themselves for the other side's civilians. So by your strategy, human shields would become the MOST effective tactic in war, and it's use would not only increase, it would give civilians incentive to embrace it since they have no consequences. And 2006 poll results? REALLY?
We killed 100sX more German and Japanese civilians than they did of ours. That doesn't make it genocide. It is what happens when your brutal rulers begin a Total War. It's horrible; but inevitable.
"If Hamas acts as Hams is acting, then what is Israel to do? As you pointed out, negotiation with them is futile. But if you don't act, then endless repeats of October 7th is inevitable."
Yep, this an important point. And the honest answer is, I don't know. Just as I don't know for sure what I'd do if somebody really did kill my family. Now and then, life presents us with horrible decisions. My point is, you have to own the horror of the decision you're making, not insist that whatever happens your actions are righteous. And it's also in no way surprising if the horror of your decisions makes people hate you. One the most pragmatic arguments against Israel's actions is that it's gong to radicalise thousands of people against Israel.
So if Israel chooses to shoot through the child, that's one thing. It's a horrific thing, obviously, but there are ways to structure this analogy so that it's a genuine dilemma. But if we keep adding children to this scenario, there comes a point, for everybody, when the choice to shoot becomes indefensible, no? Or if you shoot so recklessly that you end up killing over 6,000 kids, that too is an issue, right?
As I've said, there are no clean moral choices here. Hamas put Israel in a terrible position. I'm not disputing that. But that doesn't forever absolve Israel of responsibility for the decisions they make. Or the way they execute these decisions.
As for the 2006 poll, it's the best/only data we have regarding Palestinian sentiment. 79.5% is a pretty big chunk of the population. And it's a pretty strong refutation of the idea that Palestinians aren't interested in peace. Have those numbers changed in the past 17 years? Inevitably. But support for war tends to go *down* as time goes by. Especially when that war is in your backyard.
I've seen plenty of evidence that Palestinians are angry with Israel. As literally anybody would be if they were treated the way Israel has treated Palestinians. But I've seen no evidence that Palestinian citizens would choose their current situation over a peace that respected their human rights.
All good points, save one. In your equivalence argument on the genocide point, you don't present an alternative, and the "your family" analogy is really not up to your standards. If Hamas acts as Hams is acting, then what is Israel to do? As you pointed out, negotiation with them is futile. But if you don't act, then endless repeats of October 7th is inevitable. And it's hard to come up with a strategy that doesn't end up with about 50% Israeli casualties if they don't go the total war route. It's incumbent on a civilized army to respect civilians, but to sacrifice themselves for the other side's civilians. So by your strategy, human shields would become the MOST effective tactic in war, and it's use would not only increase, it would give civilians incentive to embrace it since they have no consequences. And 2006 poll results? REALLY?
We killed 100sX more German and Japanese civilians than they did of ours. That doesn't make it genocide. It is what happens when your brutal rulers begin a Total War. It's horrible; but inevitable.
"If Hamas acts as Hams is acting, then what is Israel to do? As you pointed out, negotiation with them is futile. But if you don't act, then endless repeats of October 7th is inevitable."
Yep, this an important point. And the honest answer is, I don't know. Just as I don't know for sure what I'd do if somebody really did kill my family. Now and then, life presents us with horrible decisions. My point is, you have to own the horror of the decision you're making, not insist that whatever happens your actions are righteous. And it's also in no way surprising if the horror of your decisions makes people hate you. One the most pragmatic arguments against Israel's actions is that it's gong to radicalise thousands of people against Israel.
So if Israel chooses to shoot through the child, that's one thing. It's a horrific thing, obviously, but there are ways to structure this analogy so that it's a genuine dilemma. But if we keep adding children to this scenario, there comes a point, for everybody, when the choice to shoot becomes indefensible, no? Or if you shoot so recklessly that you end up killing over 6,000 kids, that too is an issue, right?
As I've said, there are no clean moral choices here. Hamas put Israel in a terrible position. I'm not disputing that. But that doesn't forever absolve Israel of responsibility for the decisions they make. Or the way they execute these decisions.
As for the 2006 poll, it's the best/only data we have regarding Palestinian sentiment. 79.5% is a pretty big chunk of the population. And it's a pretty strong refutation of the idea that Palestinians aren't interested in peace. Have those numbers changed in the past 17 years? Inevitably. But support for war tends to go *down* as time goes by. Especially when that war is in your backyard.
I've seen plenty of evidence that Palestinians are angry with Israel. As literally anybody would be if they were treated the way Israel has treated Palestinians. But I've seen no evidence that Palestinian citizens would choose their current situation over a peace that respected their human rights.