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J. Andrew Shelley's avatar

Most people cannot recognize contemporary atrocities. It is simply not how the world is processed in adult minds.

Decent folk of European descent could not see the crimes perpetrated against millions of native Americans for centuries. The brutality of chattel slavery foisted on Africans was invisible to many civilized folk for almost as long. The native Americans, after all, did raid and kill European settlers. And chattel slaves were, after all, less than human per the rulings of God and science. And the worst among the Palestinians have absolutely committed atrocities against even the best among the Israelis.

As a high schooler I remember suggesting that the only way for the Middle East conflict to be resolved might be to arm the two sides equally and allow things to be worked out the modern way... that is to butcher the other side out of existence . I was shamed for that comment in my decent little group, but I'm even more ashamed that that is what can feel like is happening today--except for the part about equally arming each side.

The likely reality is that those who readily look past the atrocities of today--or who can see only the atrocities committed against their side--will be long and comfortably dead by the time history books in some distant future show remorse. It is more comfortable that way. More comfortable to wish our less desirable neighbors the peace of a detonated nuclear bomb or some sort of work camp.

This is not the way any of my personal heroes have argued that the world should be. This was EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of the position of Matthew's Jesus or of Rabbi Hillel or even the Utilitarian Bentham. But fighting for "doing to others as you would have done to yourself" is a hard battle as easily lost today as it was two hundred and two thousand years ago.

Thank you for fomenting the conversation even if every side gets angry because the other side is at least a little bit wrong.

Rogue4Gay's avatar

I love your Brock Turner example.

Two people go as freshman to a frat party and totally get trashed.

One passes out, one loses all inhibitions.

The one that lost all inhibitions is accused of attempted rape.

BOTH WERE EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RAMIFICATIONS THAT HAPPENED.

Society has no responsibility to protect someone who is stupid enough to get shitfaced drunk and passed out. But someone society now thinks it is.

Choose wisely when you go to a frat party. Maybe just don't go!

As for Israel and the Palestinians.

Its way, way, way, way, way easier than you try to make it out to be.

This is a religious war. Its been going on since the Muslims invaded the Levant in the 8th century. The Muslims had the might to keep the area Muslim mostly through to the 20th century. With brief losses during the crusades. When the Ottoman empire collapsed. The Muslim's lost their might. Coincidentally Hitler (which the Ottoman empire supported), happened at the same time and tried to wipe the Jews from Europe. Many Jews started immigrating to what would become Israel as a result. They also immigrated to Israel because the British divided up the Ottoman empire and created countries that had Muslim governments. The new countries (no surprise given the Ottoman Empire supported Hitler) persecuted the Jews. So those Jews migrated to the area that is Israel.

The Jews bought most of the land but also drove out the Palestinians in the some of the areas. All the Muslim nations that now surrounded the Jews given the way the British divided the Ottoman empire went to war to make sure the Jews didn't create a state. Surprise of all surprises the Jews won. Not just once but every time the Muslim's tried to drive them out. The Jews (with the help of England and the US) for the first time in centuries had the might. Rational Arabs/Muslims didn't dispute the issue and became Israeli citizens. They are still challenged because Israel is a Jewish state. Oh well.

Irrational Muslims that focus on the principal that Jews should not have a state and let alone control the city of Jerusalem that includes the Al Aqsa Mosque left or were driven out. Their goal is still to eliminate the Jewish state today and especially take back control of the Al Aqsa Mosque (i.e. Make East Jerusalem the capital of the state of Palestine). Issue with this is that the Al Aqsa sits on the most holy site in the Jewish religion, the Temple mount.

Funny thing about this is all the Muslim IMAMs acknowledged that it was the Temple mount - wait for it - until the Jews declared the state of Israel. Then they started changing their views and saying it wasn't. Isn't that convenient for them.

Your need to frame this as some morality concept ignores basic humanity 101. Might makes right. You can judge Israel all you want but for the first time since about 800BC the Jews have the might to hold the area they believe is God given to them. In fact based on the Torah, God was irritated when the Jews migrating from Egypt wouldn't take the land by force because they were scared. That's the story of Joshua and the wall of Jerusalem falling when he blew the horn.

There is no "moral" right or wrong in the Israeli/Palestinian war about the land. Its the oldest religious conflict still playing out over 1300 years later. You can try and claim some new age religious moral position but your position is no more valid than the Israelis or Palestinians.

The thing about the Jews versus Palestinians and Muslims in general is that they are a very, very, very patient bunch. They have patiently waited in diaspora for millennia. The 1st and 2nd world war and the bad choices of the Ottoman empire gave them a chance to reestablish themselves in what they view as their God given right.

From a totally pragmatic perspective, I would rather have the Jews and the state of Israel than a Palestinian state. I know the Jews could care less if I am LGBTQ or Christian for that matter. They have no goals to convert what they refer to as Gentiles.

The Muslims on the other hand are pretty clear that the world is meant to be one world Caliphate under Allah. Its just a matter of making it happen through Jihad.

Thanks for letting me verbalize how naive most thought is on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

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