I Will Not Let You Have The Last Word
I have several aims with the conversations I have online. And one of them is to model a more productive style of discourse.
I definitely don’t always succeed at this.
I get irritated, just like everybody else, I get defensive, just like everybody else, I get sarcastic, possibly a little more than everybody else. But the sheer volume of people I talk to reminds me how unproductive this is. And even, occasionally, shows me how to cut through the noise.
In my article, Trans Activism’s Self-Inflicted Backlash, I warned that the toxicity surrounding trans discourse is causing measurable damage to public perceptions of trans people. And in our last conversation, Stephanie seemed eager to prove my point.
But in this one (after a bit more toxicity from both of us), she offers a glimpse at what’s behind it all.
We begin with Stephanie interrupting a conversation I was having with another reader.
Stephanie:
He doesn't want a dialog, Kitty. There is no amount of refuting his points that will suffice. Look up the term "Sea Lioning" that's what he does. Pretend to be reasonable, pretend to ask questions that he has not loaded with trans fear and loathing.
My life is filled with trans joy and I share it with everyone I meet. And sadly, he does not see that through his bigotry.
Steve QJ:
There is no amount of refuting his points that will suffice.
Actually, just refuting them at all would suffice. But seeing as you prefer the "sling insults and ignore facts" approach to discourse, yeah, you're not likely to be persuasive.
Also, I find it hilarious that you can't even conceive of the possibility that I am reasonable. And that the problem is the ideas I'm criticising and your approach to communication. But that's why there's a growing backlash against people who act like you do.
Stephanie:
Because I know you cannot leave this alone without the last word, I will reply:
Where in Twitter feeds and know anti-trans opinion websites do you find facts?
That's is such a laugh that you provide "citations" from Twitter. I could tweet that you are into bestiality, and would that make it the truth or a fact?
When presented with facts, you brush them aside. You do not fool me.
If you had any balls and you don't, you would do the hard thing; you would do the difficult thing and not just pile on to a transphobic bandwagon. Defending trans women takes real guts.
Oh, I should just shut up and be silent when you come after me. That I should be polite when you very carefully pick these "facts". It is hilarious that you have the audacity to call your opinion piece factual.
You know that a simple google search brings up a very different set of "facts":
This: https://www.athleteally.org/300-swimmers-support-lia/
and this
But you don't care about facts, you want to make money and encourage transphobic folks to feel good about their trans hate.
Steve QJ:
You know that a simple google search brings up a very different set of "facts"
You know this isn't how facts work, right? If I say that some Republicans support Trump, and you point out that Liz Cheney doesn't, that doesn't refute my claim. Nor change public perception of Republicans. I've said over and over again that I don't think this vocal minority represents trans people (though its seems to represent you quite nicely). But that's because I know trans people in real life and have spoken to many more and invested a great deal of time in reading about their experiences first-hand. Most people have done none of these things. So the internet is how they form their opinions.
As for Twitter, I'm not relying on Twitter for facts. Most of my Twitter links are for videos of the documentary. But if you think Twitter doesn't matter, or you think I'm just scaremongering, consider the fact that just yesterday, Bette Midler tweeted to her 2.1 million followers warning about the erasure of the word woman. Macy Gary was on national television the day before saying that "changing your parts doesn't make you a woman."
I must say, they had me feeling like Nostradamus.
Attack me all you want. I really don't care about you. You seem like a deeply mean and unhappy person. All I'm doing is pointing out what's actually happening, and saying that a more open, less aggressive, more reasonable conversation about trans issues will get you much further than what you're doing. And indeed, that what you're doing can only hurt perceptions of trans people.
You think these two enormously influential celebrities just came to those opinions? Or do you think they were keeping quiet and now decided they had to speak up? You think they'll be the last? You think yelling at them and calling them transphobes will help? You think their influence doesn't matter? Okay, good luck with that. Well done for shooting the messenger.
“But that's because I know trans people in real life and have spoken to many more and invested a great deal of time in reading about their experiences first-hand.”
It’s incredibly easy in the internet age, to build a caricature of your “enemy.” The 50-year-old man in a dress looking for a thrill in the ladies bathroom. The rabid “right-wing” bigot who wants to wipe trans people from the face of the Earth.
These caricatures almost never reflect the people we disagree with or address the substance of the disagreements.
We very rarely actually meet “the other side.” And it’s even rarer that we really speak to them. This makes it that little bit easier to hate them. Case in point? Stephanie and I spend the next few replies aimlessly bickering with each other.
Stephanie:
But you do care about me. You are a narcissist and cannot leave me alone. You are a sad, petty, small human being.
Do you know what else is sad?
You have 30x the followers I have and you use your voice to exaggerate the threat that my life and my community poses. Leave me alone, leave my community alone.
I feel sorry for anyone you could claim as a transgender "friend," I have black friends, and they are nothing like you. LOL
And to quote James Finn regarding me, "I know you as a sweet, positive, uplifting, happy person."
Steve QJ:
You are a narcissist and cannot leave me alone. You are a sad, petty, small human being.
😂😂😂🤣You are interrupting a conversation in the comments of my article hurling insults at me. The sheer audacity to ask me to leave you alone is one of the most hilariously self-unaware things I have ever seen my life. You are very welcome to leave whenever you want.
As I said, you have proven the point I was making in the article beautifully. Because I was right. What makes me sad is the decent trans people who will be demonised because they'll be lumped in with toxic people like you.
I have 30x the followers you do because I am at least 30x more reasonable and articulate than you are (not to mention intelligent it seems). That's not me bragging, that's a reflection of how unpleasant a person you've revealed yourself to be. If you need to quote people who have never met you to bolster your self-esteem, after being abusive to a complete stranger, then yeah...okay.
Stephanie:
Please continue to insult me with your unhinged accusations. I can do this until hell freezes over. Thirty times as inteligent and articulate? LOL Toxic? Who is insulting whom? Who is being abusive?
No. The inital comment did not insult you. It insulted your writings. Big difference. You are the one crawling around on the floor here. You are so petty.
I could give a rat's about Bette Midler. I don't even know who the heck is Macy Gray is.
You can block me anytime. But you have to have the last word, always. It's your weakness.
Steve QJ:
Who is insulting whom? Who is being abusive?
I don't block people, unless they block me first, because I think blocking is childish. I don't respond to conflicting opinions by sticking my fingers in my ears or pretending they're going to kill people.
If you have anything of value to say, I'm still more than happy to listen. But the reason you have to rely on insults and hyperbole is that you don't.
Stephanie:
Oh no. See. I will not let you have the last word. I have been spit on, beaten, raped, and hunted like a dog in the night, all because I am transgender.
You have no idea how tough and determined I am. I have lived a life of enduring unspeakable cruelty because I a trans. I have a lot more to say.
Since you have an infinite capacity to continue this, I am immensely enjoying this. I see it as 30 times the cruelty, 30 times the bigotry, and 30 times the ignorance. Since you have such a far superior intellect, you must understand the truth behind real transgender lives and not the hyperbole you push in these essays. Given that, how can you live with yourself?
“Oh no. See. I will not let you have the last word. I have been spit on, beaten, raped, and hunted like a dog in the night, all because I am transgender.”
Let’s pause here and note the determination in this reply. Here is someone absolutely hell-bent on standing their ground. But against what, exactly? A stranger on the internet? A difference of opinion? Objective reality?
I hear all kinds of explanations for why people like Stephanie are so vitriolic and bitter; that they’re just stupid or mentally ill or just enjoy cry-bullying. I’m sure, in some cases, these explanations are true.
But the most likely explanation, at least to my mind, is that they’re in pain. Whether as a result of transphobia or racism or something completely unrelated. And they use their “oppression” as justification to say all the things they wish they could say to their bullies.
Which leaves a choice between responding in kind, or helping them find their way back to reality.
Steve QJ:
I have been spit on, beaten, raped, and hunted like a dog in the night, all because I am transgender.
And I didn't do any of these things to you. I never would. In fact, I've fought, physically, on two separate occasions to defend trans people who were being harassed. Verbally on many other occasions.
I’m not going to be an avatar for every bully you’ve ever faced or a release mechanism for whatever pain and venom you have inside you because of how you've been mistreated by other people. I'm sorry for it. Truly I am. But it's nothing to do with me or anything I’ve ever written.
Sadly I have a few readers who choose to direct their own personal unhappiness onto me. On a range of issues. Race, trans issues, politics, it doesn’t seem to matter. Some people lack the emotional maturity to read an opinion, consider the possibility that it's not all about them, and disagree, if they do disagree, in a way that might lead to more understanding instead of more animosity.
Instead, they decide I'm some kind of monster who holds views that are a million miles from anything I believe, and attack me personally because doing so is easier than acknowledging the existence of nuance.
If you want to join their ranks, that's fine. It doesn't take me much time to respond, and occasionally a glimmer of self-awareness pokes through.
That was the last I heard from Stephanie. Maybe a glimmer of self-awareness poked through after all.
I truly hate the toxicity that surrounds trans discourse. Which is why I think it’s so important to try to understand it.
The abuse and ignorance that trans people face, coupled with an online echo chamber that is constantly exaggerating (and often, outright lying) about the “hatred” society feels for them, makes “attack” the default response when anybody questions the dogma.
Every dissenting opinion is “violence.” All pushback is a prelude to “trans genocide.” Any recognition of biological fact will make trans teenagers kill themselves. Once you’ve convinced yourself that the stakes are this high, why wouldn’t you unleash whatever lies and vitriol you could muster?
But it’s impossible to have a fight (at least one you can convince yourself is righteous) when you’re the only one who’s fighting. And, if we’re not fighting, we’re talking. Conversations are opportunities to learn. To solve problems. To better understand each other. Not to vent, not to “win”, not even to have the last word.
I'm going to be honest: I could be wrong about this, but I don't believe Stephanie's litany of aggressions committed against her, esp rape. I know trans people *do* get assaulted, and sometimes a lot, but Stephanie's acting so much like an entitled man that I don't find it hard to believe she's lying about that. It's not that I think women regularly lie a lot about rape; this just seems to be appropriated grievance.
I don't trust many social media women anymore who claim rape and sexual assault; mostly because the words have been stretched so out of shape by sexual assault activists and extremist feminists that I'm not sure they even understand any more what *is* a rape. In fact, when some #MeToo personal story orgy breaks out over the cancelled celebrity du jour, I suspect a *lot* of women, esp the anonymous ones, are making up their alleged rape stories for the attention and the sisterhood. They're not naming some guy who supposedly did it; they're never going to get busted lying because they're @IHateTrump231 or whatever and there's nothing on their profile to identify them. Since toxic transwomen like Stephanie ape the very worst of toxic femininity & feminism, I wonder if she's making up the rape story. Who's going to challenge her? That's verboten.
She very much sounds like she's in this for the victimhood. She's everything wrong with the left, the trans movement, and exactly the sort of person JK Rowling speaks out against.
You're very good at this, Steve. "Self-unaware" is a splendid turn of phrase that I will plagiarize at earliest opportunity.
But here is where you and I differ:
"I truly hate the toxicity that surrounds trans discourse. Which is why I think it’s so important to try to understand it."
I would change "try to understand" to "ignore" or something stronger. Years of online combat now feel like wasted time for me and even if I had once had your patience, seeing the odometer of age roll from 59 to 60 would have ended it. I don't know why you focus on the most hopeless and least reachable.
Because it was clear very early in the exchange that Stephen/anie is a virulently hostile person whose claims of "trans joy" and of belonging to a "community" are not exaggerations but lies. Nobody as hostile as he is could ever experience a moment of joy except maybe after getting someone banned, and he is far too self-centered to be a reciprocal part of any community.
This interlocutor supports the point of your article very well; why would anyone whose only exposure to this fad community* want to get closer to it? This person is repellent. And the backlash is growing.
*That Stephen/anie is not actually dysphoric is not proven but it is a statistically defensible presumption and his defensiveness is wholly at odds with self-acceptance. He's jumping aboard whatever bandwagon affording opportunities to play the victim.
Edit: I almost never continue engagement with people who use "lol" or "lmao" or any of those. That's just immature. I respond with "teenybopper" and answer no more.